James Cooper
Hello and welcome back to the podcast looking to do things differentlyproviding you with the inside track on the data and analysis that reveals howthe business of elite sport really ticks. In response to the need for anindependent voice in such a cluttered and noisy environment, Leonard Curtis haslaunched the Business of Sport series, providing validated sets of financialdata, plus professional commentary for major sports, all in one place. Puttingit very neatly, it's the one-stop shop for cutting edge sports research. Aspart of their multi- channel campaign, we're delighted to welcome you to thethird episode of our first podcast series entitled Sport, Structured. To put itquite simply, it's all the facts and figures you need to know from the peoplewho know what they're talking about and backed by Leonard Curtis, who've morethan 30 years of expertise in recovery and turning businesses around. Westarted our series with a broad look at the state of rugby union and cricketbefore taking a deep dive into what's happening in golf. All in conjunctionwith ground breaking financial studies headed up by leading academics andexperts. Leonard Curtis were the first ever company to profile county cricketin this country with their 2025 report and they're about to reveal their 2026findings. So, what better time to step up to the crease and talk to some bighitters. Alongside me here in the sparkling UCFB broadcast studios in the heartof Media City are three men who've all contributed to the latest investigationinto the health of county cricket. Who better to check the pulse rate thansomeone who followed the cricketing pathway and went on to play for threecounties before hanging up his spikes and become Leonard Curtis's COO. I'mdelighted to welcome David Brown. David, nice to see you. Alongside David is aman who's captained an England side to a cricketing World Cup and was awardedan MBE for his services to the sport and the leading role he's played in thegrowth of disability cricket. Looking forward to chatting to Iain Nairn whoheads up Leonard Curtis's office in the Northeast. Ian, welcome to the studio.And finally, a more welcome face and more familiar face and someone whosecricketing achievements probably ranked alongside mine. But then again, I'venot gone toe-to-toe in an England shirt with rugby great Dan Cartridge. Lovelyseeing Alex Cadwallader here with us again. Alex, welcome back. So, time to getpadded up and examine the state of professional cricket. This is a Sport,Structured podcast with Leonard Curtis. Gentlemen, delighted to have you here.Um, Alex knows my first question because he's had the first question a coupleof times. Uh, the state of English cricket, county cricket, call it what youlike. Uh, dying man is naught, Superman is 10. Where does English cricket finditself right now?
David Brown
Uh, I would probably say about five. Uh, I would say that because I thinkthere's never been more money and opportunity in the game, but I think we're ona precipice now of how that money is used um to help develop the county game,the international game, and all the all the um different aspects of thepyramid. So, you know, I think there's a great opportunity there, but you know,it's what we're doing in the next few years.
James Cooper
Ian, five could go either way. So, which way you going to go? Are yougoing to stay and hedge your bets like David did?
Iain Nairn
No, I was going to be slightly more optimistic. It's in my nature to be abit more optimistic. I would go as high as six um if only because I think thereare some great people involved in the game who really now have the opportunityas David just spoke about to to protect the game for the future.
James Cooper
How have your perspectives changed from from playing to business to asyou pointed out to me yesterday to fans firstly wearing a kind of business hatdoes that make you look at cricket differently to what it was when you were ina dressing room amongst it all?
David Brown
Yeah, I think so. I think when you you're playing you're you're in yourown silo really. you're only really focusing on what you can do and and perhapsdon't have an appreciation of the wider aspects of what it takes to run abusiness. Um I think certainly since since finishing playing you get more of anappreciation of you know the financial sustainability of clubs and of the gameis absolutely crucial to be able to you know achieve some of the things on thepitch. So I've certainly seen both perspectives now which perhaps I didn'tquite have when I was playing. James Cooper Yeah, I was going to say is it abit of a panacea when you're a player you're thinking it's all about me it'sall about winning things all about success and then you kind of turn the pageand go into business and think hang on the rules have changed here are they alittle bit Ian?
Iain Nairn
absolutely look when you're when you're playing you're all about you thenext ball that's coming down when you step away and go into business you kindlook at at a you know from a higher level ultimately and and you see differentbits as a player you're not involved in the business side of it to be able tostep back and bring our experience to the game is you something that's reallypositive for us
James Cooper
Alex wearing a rugby union hat Would you prefer the ECB were in charge ofrugby union or the RFU? Do you look kind of longingly at cricket and think Iwish we had that structure or at least maybe that money?
Alex Cadwallader
Um, I think yeah, I think cricket's in probably a better position thanrugby in the in the in England and the UK generally. I think that's helped bysome of the governance. There's always going to be some criticism, but withincricket there have been models identified that are profitable that have led tothe growth of the game. And in England, in rugby, we're still sort ofscrambling for that. We've almost gone away from the T20 model with the rugbysevens. You know, you'd almost argue that rugby had a product for the last know30 years that was fantastic, people loved watching and we've gone away fromthat and we've let that slip and now we've allowed, you know, the IPL, the thebig bash, the hundred to take that short format game and really get some benefitsfrom it.
James Cooper
There's also a former rubber union guy who signed you for Newcastle, RobAndrew who's now kind of central to it. He's managing director of the ECB. Isthat a safe pair of hands?
Alex Cadwallader
I think so. Absolutely. You know, Rob has performed at, you know, thevery highest level um in the amateur era um also in the professional era. He'sguided Newcastle to um success. He's also been involved at county cricket. Youknow, I think he played cricket as well for for Cambridge University. Um andhe's uh he's not in the high profile. He's not seeking to do it for his ownagenda. Um so, yeah, I think he's a very sensible uh person to have at the ECBthat has seen all sides of the game. So, you know, I'd hope that he going tomake a positive impact.
James Cooper
David, how do you look at the focus on players? Because everyone willtell you that because of the hundreds here and because the money that's incricket, it's never a better time to be a player. Is it more accurate to sayit's never been a better time to be a player at a certain club?
David Brown
Uh, I would say so. It depends what stage of your career at. I think all18 clubs um you know, some of the perhaps smaller clubs are giving are acrucial part of the pathway as well and give exposure to younger players toplay as well. I think um [clears throat] you know clearly if you're at a biggerclub you have more exposure you perhaps playing division one cricket you mayget picked up by more more in franchise cricket whether that is in the hundredor overseas as well so but I think you know all clubs will give an opportunityto different levels of player at different stages in their career James CooperHow do you see it Ian? probably exactly I mean I I didn't play first class likelike David did so you might
James Cooper
You played up until 18, played able body cricket up until 18
Iain Nairn
yeah absolutely in some of my sort of teammates went on went on into thefirst class game. But I think it it is um you know it's the challenge thatwe're seeing in the world at the minute, isn't it? You there is an opportunityfor good people to make good money at doing good things. It's trying to getthat opportunity and that break to be able to get ahead and do that. I thinkthat's where where the real challenge comes and some of those clubs who haven'tgot the financial structure behind them and that and and the ability to reallycreate opportunity for people will will struggle and that might be a placewhere it's difficult to more difficult to grow. Again,
James Cooper
Related to that question, is the hundred then good for some people andnot good for others?
Iain Nairn
Well,I think we've definitely seen the hundred has worked brilliantly forthe women's game, you know, and and the and the way that the hundred's broughtfamily into the into the game to as spectators, it's been really good. But youlook at the the game and the number of foreign players who are coming in, youyes, it's impacting on quality, but is it taking away opportunity from the fromthe the local talent who could be performing in there?
David Brown
Yeah, I think with the hundred, you know, it's for me, I think it's it'sdone what it said on the tin. It's brought a lot of money into the game andit's whether you like the product or you don't like the product. Uh I thinkthere's a lot positivity with with the hundred and what it's done. I I thinkI'm more interested now in how given it's taking external investment, howthat's going to coexist with the county game as well and what happens to thathundred tournament and whether eventually that will detract from other tournother um competitions maybe the blast in future as well. Um, nobody knows atthis point, but you know, it's it's difficult to see as the hundred develops,as as those investors will want to return on on what they've invested intothose franchises, how that's going to how that's going to exist with withcounty cricket.
James Cooper
I know we talked about kind of the schedule when you played. Uh, now it'seven more congestion. I mean, in terms of being a player, you you'd love toplay cricket, but you get to a stage where you think some of these players musthate playing cricket.
David Brown
I think it's a treadmill during the season in truth. And I don't thinkmuch has changed. It's probably even more cricket now perhaps than there waswhen when I played and there was a lot then. I mean there are times when you'replaying 20 30 days on the on the trot. Um whether that's practice or straightinto games and I think you know sometimes I hear football managers talk aboutoh we played three games in 10 days. Um you know you used to go from game togame to game and even more so if you were in between first and second 11cricket um different competitions as well. um very very difficult, lots oftravel. Um and at the same time, it's not a sob story. You're doing somethingyou love for a living and and that that can't be lost. But if you ask someone toperform at the highest day after day after day and practice and work on thefitness and do everything you need to do to be successful, that's very verychallenging during an English county season.
James Cooper
Alex, you know the counter argument is that you're again being paid verywell, being financially rewarded very well, and you're doing something thateveryone else would kill to do. But sometimes that's not enough, is it?
Alex Cadwallader
No, it's not. But the one thing I think the ECB and cricket generallyshould take some credit for and they have sort of been dragged into thatposition is that they are happy to coexist with the rest of the the cricketingum leagues that are out there. Um and I sometimes find it astounding that inrugby our best performers Maro Itoje is not able to maximize his earningpotential because of the current governance. he has to play in England to playin England and I think that's the only main sport in the UK that we have thatrestriction where over here we're more than comfortable with Jofrer Archerbeing playing in the IPL coming back and having two weeks off as opposed togoing out of Lords on a on a Thursday. Now I appreciate that took a lot ofinfighting and so on and so on but they've sort of got there which I think is aa big tick and they found a way to try and make it work. Whereas in rugby westill look at you know arguably our best back rowers are now playing in Franceand we can't pick them for the coming you know upcoming six nations world cupso on and so on. So that is a big tick and a big question mark on rugby in theUK.
James Cooper
It's also led to a kind of different cricket hasn't Ian in terms of kindof you know the guy that goes all around the world playing T20 cricket. IainNairn Absolutely. you you mercenaries to it to to a degree traveling around butlooking after their family. You're creating their futures, becoming stars andand selling the game globally. You we're in a global world, aren't we? And youwhat you're doing in in Australia, what you're doing in India is very muchselling the game in England and hopefully attracting people to go watch Englishcricket.
James Cooper
Without putting words into your mouth and I think you're kind of oldschool when it comes to cricket, would you been tied to county or would you goon and chase the money?
David Brown
Oh, no. I I probably would have in all honesty I would have chased themoney if you got if you got an opportunity. It's not just the money. Some ofthese global tournaments you you'd be playing with some of the best players inthe world and that's an amazing experience for any cricketer to be able to todo. I think you know money is obviously you're trying to earn a living, lookafter your family, it's a short career, all those type of things but I don'tthink you ever do anything exclusively for money. certainly helps but there'salso the attraction of playing these you know on the biggest stage in front ofthe most people with the best players in the world and I think franchisecricket has has has brought that
James Cooper
so this time last year Leonard Curtis broke the mold by by delving intocricket and it's a proper deep dive I think it's 92 pages I was looking throughit again yesterday were you surprised by what you said found with the forensicnature of it?
David Brown
Not not hugely and that's possibly because I'm familiar with uh with thecounty game and the way it works I think there is a divide where in particularthe last 10 15 years there's been a lot of investment from certain test matchground clubs counties into their infrastructure and it's it's clear that youknow those with the more uh more financially sustainable uh in terms of thedifferent revenue streams they've got other than just cricket are the bestperformers. of course as outliers where there are people who or counties thathave outperformed perhaps where they they they um that they could have been umand I think it shows a divide that some of the clubs which are close to smallercounties um they're struggling financially and you know there's there's adifficulty in how they get themselves out of that one with the corporatestructure and with you know there's lots of talk about demutualization at themoment but also with a with a with a very small attic base from which theycan't drive further revenue streams. And I think that then is a is a cyclethrough into the type of players they can attract and the quality they can puton the pitch. Um and I think the hundred obviously coming in as well with whichwill benefit more some counties more than than other counties just from whetherthey're a host or not.
James Cooper
Yeah. And I think Dave said in the report last year that the haves andhave nots that the the gap could get even bigger. Is that the way you're kindof seeing it as well?
Iain Nairn
Yeah, absolutely. and you you you live within spitting distance of DurhamRiverside. You they've got things going on where they're trying to increasetheir revenue to be able to compete with the likes of Surrey down at the Ovalwho have got massive income being generated from there. I think that you knowit's always going to be there. The haves and the have not. I think last yearMichael Vaughan was you talking about and he was quite surprised that we weremore positive about cricket than than he was expecting us to be as well.Obviously, he's spending a lot of time in the game, watching, and I think heexpected it to be, you know, a lot less positive than it was.
James Cooper
You mentioned Sorry. I mean, that they're so head and shoulders aboveeverybody else. If you almost got to say they're an outlier, or can you saythat we can try and copy them as best practice?
Iain Nairn
Yeah. Look, you you're in this you're in the heart of London City. Youyou're getting test matches at you at the best of the you at the best of times.You you're getting the hundred games. You're getting you're selling out forT20s um in the blast. I think you it is always going to be difficult forDurham, Northants the outlying um you counties to be able to to compete butthat doesn't mean that they can't create their own model that works in the sameway that Surrey created a model for them that works
James Cooper
but I mean Surrey are head and shoulders aren't they?
David Brown
Absolutely. I mean the facilities
James Cooper
I mean all the ingredients work for them don't they?
David Brown
They do but I think you got to give Surrey credit as well. they've beenable to invest and they've invested well in their infrastructure, theirconference facilities, their other revenue streams that they've developed tohelp sustain the club financially. You know, they're not just a county cricketclub, the events business, um hospitality business, and there are othercounties that have done the same. Lancashire similar, you know, built hotelsand and and other revenue streams. So, um I think I think Surrey not everyoneis going to be able to be a Surrey. You know, they are in a great location inthe city. um and they've got a you know huge fan base and and and exposure butum I think that model of how you could develop um your business to not just bejust cricket cricket still incredibly important um is essential for thecounties to take note
James Cooper
what's interesting in that is that people are now talking about bringingmore cricket cricketing expertise to go alongside that I mean we we've gotLancashire down the road they're bringing in cricket people because they findthemselves in division two with a bit of debt a good financial model that willprobably get them out that debt And yet they now want to see it turn on. Youcan't just turn on performance like a switch.
David Brown
No, I think sometimes naturally in sport things sometimes work in cycles.You know, you if you take a football example, Manchester United dominated thegame for however many years and then have had a period of a decade where theythey've not done anywhere near as what they did before. I think similar canhappen in in cricket as well. I think Lancashire have built a great foundationin terms of what they got financially, but the results don't argue that theythey haven't performed probably where they used to perform in particular. Igrew up watching them in the 90s. They used to win every trophy going. They hada great squad. Um so whether the focus has gone off cricket or not is difficultto say and I'm not in the inside with that. But the results show that theyhaven't performed as they could have performed, you know, as they've donehistorically. So I think they're trying to make inroads into bringing some morecricket people, more expertise onto that board, who those people will be.There's lots in the press at the moment and who those people might be, but Ithink it's absolutely crucial. You are also a cricket club and and and membersas well. Um you want to perform on the pitch, you want to develop players andyou want to be successful. That's what you're about.
James Cooper
Alex, wearing a business head as well as your rugby head. Um it's greathaving members in cricket but do they kind of get in the way in the sense thatthe whole operation could be far more successful financially if if you couldbring in investment from outside you know demutualization has been mentionedMiddlesex are talking about it Yorkshire are now talking about it um is the dayof the member rapidly coming to an end?
Alex Cadwallader
not necessarily and it's not always just a silver bullet letting someonecome in with some financial backing and their own ideas um I think they cancoexist and what we have seen in lots of sport is sort of heritage traditionjust being sold to the the biggest bidder often from uh far a field withdifferent objectives that don't necessarily align with what that sporting clubis there to provide. And as we discussed previously, you know, sporting clubsand sport itself is in that sort of crux position that it's there to servicemore than its shareholders, its owners and delivering a return. It's there toproduce a professional team that's wants to compete and win trophies, but alsoprovide something to the local community and society as a whole. So, it's tryingto get that all together is is a challenge. Um so no I don't think membersvoices should just be um quietened and dismissed but you do want to have theability to communicate with them and um put your point across and to engagewith them to say this is where we are we are currently heading and you knowsometimes you it's great to have passion absolutely and you know in my sportone of the real challenges is is the Welsh game where they're as passionate aseveryone and You're often told that, you know, Ebbw Vale or Swansea beat theAll Blacks in 1930. Why can't we compete with Bordeaux and La Roshelle now, butthe economics are just chalk and cheese. You're complete, you're comparing, youknow, Walmart to, you know, a a market store and they can't compete. Um, so ina roundabout way, James, I'm saying yes, you need to listen to them. Itshouldn't just be dismissed, but they they need to understand if you're tryingto achieve X and get to the very top. um you do need to have some you know somesmart business acumen and make sure investment is coming in and then being putin the right place.
James Cooper
So is it finding a model that works that allows both Iain?
Iain Nairn
I suspect so look the a lot of the members of of country clubs will beolder people who are there watching the 4 day game enjoying themselves. Theyprobably make up a small proportion of the people who actually watch the widerform of cricket you know the hundred the blast and the and the one day game. SoI I think it you know they are important people because they provide thatsteady income to the to the county but providing you know answers for onlythose members might be challenging and taking away from you know the thehundreds of thousands of other people who actually come through the gates andyou might even spend more money you overall
James Cooper
but I'm just wondering when you've got Yorkshire a host uh of the hundredthere a test ground or an international ground and they're saying it could be adisaster if we don't demutualize it's not looking good for everybody else isit?
David Brown
No, I think Yorkshire as well is a unique case. You know, the wellpublicized troubles they've had in in the last few years regarding the the theracism scandals and stuff and I think that's clearly impacted the clubfinancially. Um they've had a huge Benefactor as well with with Colin Graves umover the years. So, you know, I think ultimately they perhaps are slightlydifferent to some of the other counties given that given that history, but Ithink, you know, to echo Alex's point, it's not a silver bulletdemutualization. But I do personally believe to attract uh external investment,you're going to have to demutualize, right? That that's the point where thatinvestment then is put and and what's the what's the strategy and getting theright people in. You know, we've seen and again to use another footballexample, we've seen some of the disasters with external investors and theforeign owners and those kind of things coming into the game where some haveworked unbelievably well and some have
James Cooper
as a Burnley fan you've been delighted with what happens at Blackburn.
David Brown
Yeah. Well, [laughter] yeah, you you said it, but yeah. Um, no. And andit's common place now in in sport, you know, it's attractive uh investmentmodel for some for some for for a number of people. So, I think you've got toput the foundations in place. is the does the corporate structure and and andand and governance allow for that investment to come in in first place.
Alex Cadwallader
And I think we've got to be honest and look at success stories across theglobe. And if you look at sports where there is a commissioner or there is ahead honcho to a certain expect who's got the ability to affect change pushthrough new agendas and I'm talking you know like Bernie Eckleston back in theday in Formula 1 or if we look at uh the NBA uh Major League Baseball NFLthere's a very clear business plan. Yes, the owners have to have their ownagendas as well, but they are working together and there's no one there sittingat sitting there saying, "Actually, look, I like turning up on a Tuesdayafternoon to watch 2 and 1/2 days worth of, you know, Northants againstLeicester with 20 other people in in in the uh in the audience. So I think youneed really strong governance in terms of the ability to make change especiallygiven that we're talking about sports that have for the first time ever hadhundreds of millions of pounds invested in them by funds that expect to returnby funds that are doing it for political agendas other agendas that we'reunaware of. Um so yeah I think let's learn from some of the success storiesthat are elsewhere.
James Cooper
We we we talk through rugby union's ability to chew through 200 million.Yeah. I mean 500 million's double plus some. Does that make it less easy tochew through or or or the guard rails that the ECB have put in it makes make ita healthier situation?
Alex Cadwallader
Hopefully it'll be a healthier situation. You know, I understand fromactually conversations that I had with the uh professional cricketers um bodyspeaking to the players that they actually flagged um that this money will notbe used in the same way that the CVC money was used in rugby uh where in a lotof cases it was just to pay back existing loans um that you know the owners andbenefactors had uh provided to the clubs. Um but there will be some devil inthe detail James that you know as as uh David said if there isn't a return onthe investment what stepping rights do these investors have? what will theythen do you know with this this franchise? and what what what what's the widerimplication? James Cooper Iain you're smiling Iain Nairn yeah I mean, look it'sa really big challenge isn't it you've you've got the different counties youSurrey would be able to use the money completely differently to the way thatDurham can use the money the way that the ECB are keeping control of it you'renot s sharing the dressed out as as they first thought that they were going tobe doing. I think there are some you know there's room for fallout it youacross the counties if they don't get that agreed and different counties aregoing to need to spend that money in different ways. There's no point in yousome counties putting a hotel up that it's not going to drive revenue [clearsthroat] it's not going to support their business but for others that criticalinfrastructure spending will be will be essential and they should really befreed up to go and go and do that. But I think you're looking after that moneyyou in in the long run rather than you frittling it away. You and
Alex Cadwallader
they're going to have to be some difficult conversations and whether youthen decide actually given that some of the clubs only turn over X and as yousay they're not in a financial hub. We can't put a hotel there because peoplearen't just going to go and use it. Do you have some difficult conversations?You know, if um when Rob's sitting in this chair, he often talks about netballwhich is a sport close to his heart. and they moved to a franchise model andsaid to uh Bath, you're not getting a franchise just because they weren't ableto hit some key metrics. So, you've got a massive disparity in turnover. You'vegot Surrey 75 million plus and you've got plenty of other counties 10 millionand less and that is a challenge trying to take all of those on the samejourney and keeping everyone happy.
James Cooper
Professor Rob will be delighted that you mentioned net sitting in hischair. Yeah, 0:25:04.880,0:25:10.400 that's really who that was like very nice
Alex Cadwallader
he text me earlier
James Cooper
Dave when you when you were told about the money that was coming in 520million everyone knows the figure was it yippy or thank goodness
David Brown
I think both I think a bit of a combination of both I think more money inthe game is a good thing and again I come back to how that's going to be used Ithink a cautiously um would say as well that they've got to be careful as wellwith all the counties there are host counties and non-host counties and somecounties will benefit much greater than others and there is a real possibilitythat the gap could widen further. I think um you're going to have the strongcarriers get even stronger with the types of money that we're talking about onthe table and then we look at again the return or investment and where does thehundred go in a couple more years you know does this then become a T20tournament I think that's you know a real possibility what does that then do tothe blast you know does it devalue the blast and with the blast probably beinga key source of revenue for a number of counties what is going to happen totheir financials off the back of the hundred either evolving into a T20tournament or getting bigger and bigger. So there are a lot of questions yetunanswered. I think the money is there and and I think on the whole that couldbe a good thing, but it it really does come down to how that's going to beused.
James Cooper
How do you assess the kind of process of sharing knowledge in cricket? Isit is it still close shop county to county or are people talking more?
David Brown
I imagine that probably counties do talk to each other. I I would hopethey do and something Michael Vaughan um talked about on last year when he whenhe he worked with us on the report that you know they're not really incompetition with each other from a business perspective. clearly on the pitchthey're in competition, but I would hope that the the the counties, you know,can pool knowledge and and um you know, some of the Surreys and Lancashire'sand clubs that have redeveloped over the last decade or so, can can thatknowledge base be shared with perhaps some of the other counties which need toknow develop further revenue stream, develop their asset base and and andbecome help them become more financially sustainable?
Alex Cadwallader
I've got a question for the two of you. What would you deem is successwith the hundred investment? Because with investment coming into other sportsin the UK, we've often got European competitions to compare how well uh clubsare doing. But how would you what would you like this money to what metric areyou looking at? Is it do you want the hundred to be profitable and throwing offlots of money back to investors or is it producing more England players or whatwhat do you think we're actually trying to achieve?
David Brown
as a as a as a as a cricket fan for me it's about England being the bestcricket nation in the world right being successful so I think this comes backto strategy with ECB and counties you know I presume the ECB's strategy is toproduce players for England and to help with the overall pyramid and structureof the game that that that that flows into that I don't know do counties haveexactly the same objective I don't know or is it just for them to be successfulon the pitch and exist in their own bubble. Now, you know, for me, the themoney that has come in has got to benefit the wider pyramid, right? It has tobenefit the wider pyramid. Similar, we're talking about what happened withrugby and the lessons that can be learned from that. If it doesn't benefit thewider pyramid, and we've got to remember that a lot of kids in this countrycome to cricket mainly through their clubs. Now there will be various privateindependent schools that do cricket on the curriculum and I imagine in stateschools the provision is probably not as great and most kids would learn bygoing with their mom and dad or their auntie or uncle to a cricket club andlearning the game there and therefore running these local cricket cricket clubsis very very difficult very difficult to survive will depend on huge amount ofvolunteers and in order for the game to be sustainable that money has got totry and trickle down to all aspects talk about women's cricket. Talk aboutdisability cricket. It's about a wider participation because without the widerparticipation, you're not going to at the grassroots, you're not going toproduce the England players.
James Cooper
They're challenging themselves to make it the most inclusive sport in theworld. Yeah. And yet I know the pathway you came through, I know Iain, you'reat university, but David, you went through the university pathway with withwith the cricketing expertise, excellence, center of excellence, excuse me. Um,and that's been pulled. Can the two not coexist?
David Brown
Well, I think so. The wider point with the university cricket for me, andI'm obviously hugely in favor of it. I benefited from it. You know, I I signedon a junior contract when I was 18 or 19 at Lancashire, having come throughtheir youth a youth age group. Wasn't quite good enough at that age, learnedfrom that lesson, went to university to get something off the back of that tosupport me in case I did make it. You're always going to have your players likeJames Anderson, Ian Bell, Alistair Cook who will make it in any system, right?that they're they're generally generational, you know, generational talents.You know, I needed two or three more years to get better and it allowed me toplay professionally, but the offset of that as well and the and the catalystfrom that is then that then feeds down into club cricket. So, it's notnecessarily about how many people make it from the game at university centersof excellence, but those people then go back to their clubs, back into schools,they coach the game. It benefits the wider pyramid. And what I would say thoughat the same time is the number of county cricketers that have gone through theuniversity system is in the three figures. There are a lot of players that havedone that. The PCA do a huge amount of work to help players prepare for lifeafter cricket. It's a short career contrary to the reports where there's a fewwho earn a lot of money in cricket. The average county cricketer would not earnlife-changing sums of money. They could earn a decent living but notlife-changing. And therefore at some point the money that's needed to invest tohelp those players transition into something after the game happens either at alater stage or an earlier stage. So the university system is not just aboutdoes it produce players for England. It helps the wider infrastructure. Itshouldn't really be a question of you can't invest in that so you should investin that. You can do all of it. There's enough money now in the game to be ableto do it. And you you're talking about relatively small sums of money. I thinkI think the university centers cost 300 or 400,000 a year to run. When I when Iwas there, it might be a bit more now, but you're talking probably 2 or 3million pounds a year to benefit the wider game and also give those players thechance to become professional later on. It would have all otherwise been lost.
James Cooper
Well, I was going to say we're sat here because you went through theuniversity part pathway and played cricket.
Iain Nairn
Yeah. And you university gives you the the skills in life. Cricket givesyou equal skills in life. I think, you know, it's that that personal skill, theability to sit with people and and converse whilst you're watching your friendsbat and and be part of that team that it's it's really essential. I you Durhamyou where where David went around the corner from me, the the guys who wereleading UCCE, you coach coached me locally as well. So, you know, the impactthat it has across the whole of the the cricketing spectrum is is massive.
James Cooper
talk about inclusivity. Your your children play cricket, Alex.
Alex Cadwallader
Yeah. I I love the fact that I can on a on a Sunday go to my local cluband watch my 9-year-old daughter and sevenyear-old son playing the same team.Um and you know they uh quite enjoyed seeing bowled Cadwallader, caughtCadwallader um last Sunday. So it's fantastic and I think you know cricket isone of those sports that also doesn't have sort of the the injury andconcussion head injury um sort of scandals if you want to put it that uh youknow football and especially rugby have and you know is a great sort of socialgame and it teaches you your own personal responsibility um because you need todeliver but also working as a team so there's some fantastic life lessons umand you know I think you can learn a lot from it so that side of things I thinkis is essential, but there's always a challenge between the amateur game andthe professional game. Um, and especially when you've got people puttinghundreds of millions into it, they want a return. And how focused really arethey on Durham University cricket
James Cooper
and the answer for the ECB seems to be, well, we'll target state schoolsand we'll make cricket big in state schools. Is that is that something thatworks? It's not something maybe that works initially.
David Brown
I think you've got to give the opportunity to play, right? and and and umI know there was some government funding that was down a few years ago, then itgot pulled with a change of government and or subsequently reducedsignificantly down to to a couple of million quid. I think you you've got toyou got to provide the opportunity for kids to play. Not everyone's going tolove cricket. Not every kid's going to love cricket, but if they don't have theopportunity to play at school and learn and have a a role model who they canlook up to, then where are they going to start? you know and generally it'sonly if their family are into cricket or they have a family member who saysright come down to the local club that they might get into it. So I think youknow and and that's the same for every sport whether it's cricket or or or orgolf or or whatever it may be. So I think investment in state school cricket isessential to give people that give kids the exposure to playing. It's notnecessarily a cheap sport to play. You got to buy the kit. The bats areexpensive nowadays. Um and money being a blocker from somebody being able tohave an opportunity is something that you know I would think governing bodiesand government should be looking to should be looking to uh address. Iain NairnIt's probably quite a challenge though you you look at the state system you thefinancial challenges that they have in providing the resources for the kids todo it. you the ECB have got all stars which is a brilliant thing to get kidsinto into clubs and and playing but then it's that sort of teenage years wherewhere you really see the drop off as the other distractions come be be thatexams and you know girls and boys you get uh and I think that that is the realchallenge of keeping people in the game then you you're even seeing it in clubyou club land now you Saturday teams you might have had three or four teamsplaying on a Saturday and now they're down to one or two and really strugglingto get the quality you out there. That's all part of the challenge that thegame is is dealing with. And that's to me what that the money from the hundredneeds to be trying to fix as well. That you know that that grassroots bit thatdrives you players for the future.
Alex Cadwallader
Well, that that should be the aim for all sports that we can make itsustainable, we can make it welcoming, but we're also putting something backinto the community so that we're giving, you know, not just the youngsters, buteveryone something to do on the weekends instead of, you know, gettingdistracted and pulled into other areas of life because it is a, you know, youknow, our CEO has got a a big background in boxing, has a lot of friends inboxing and that's a a great uh sport for, you know, pulling people back ontodifferent tracks and trying to really changed their life and that's what sportcan do. It is passionate. Uh it creates passion with we're fans. It is emotive.Um but it's also now become a business and we have to find a way to you know tryand bring those two things together.
James Cooper
Iain, one of the things the 2025 Leonard Curtis report did really wellwas shine a light on disability cricket. done that in the 2026 report as wellwhich goes into detail loads of other bits but flying the flag for disabilitycricket what you do very well and got you the MBE if you like what how healthyis it? it seems to be going in the right direction but I'm not a qualifiedjudge of that
Iain Nairn
Absolutely look disability cricket has been going a long time in you knowin England and around the world um faced some challenges immediately aftercovid so you we had physical disability learning disability deaf and visuallyimpaired cricket They've now merged the the the three other than the visuallyimpaired cricket together to create this pan disability tournament. So we'vegot the disability premier league now which is sponsored by Toyota the same youyou following England the England men's team it's great to see that investmentgoing in the England pan disability team have now played India in bilateralseries twice India are back here this summer including another game at Lords soyou it's all going in the right direction and for me that you sort of takingaway just the medical bit of the of the team and putting everyone together umis the only way that the game can really push itself well forward having thethe different categories where you seem like the natural way to do it at thestart but trying to get the numbers involved in the game to have you finding 11people with physical disability finding 11 people with learning disability thatwould be a perfect world if you could though wouldn't it yeah and and do youknow what maybe in 40 50 years time as the game has developed through thepandisability and you can then branch out you look at the para Olympics you youhave T44s and T45s competing with each other in the same race it's still thesame race but they're competing for themselves with you with within that and Ithink look ultimately you put everyone together it creates opportunity becauseyou can have more people playing you the DPL of four team um tournament at theminute if we can get that up to six and eight that will there's more people thenexperiencing high quality you know elite cricket with disabilities that meansthat more people can you fight for places in England and you might be able toyou might be able to then go back to the additional disabilities
James Cooper
I was going to say could you see a world where 5 10 years time it might0:38:17.760,0:38:22.000 be a part of the hundred. You might have threeback-to-back games, men, women, disability team.
Iain Nairn
It would be amazing. I I honestly think it could be done now. I I thinkif if you know some of the hundreds could commit to supporting the you one ofthe disability teams or at least allowing them to be part of the day. Um youknow for for years England women have you sort of fought to be seen and and toget their exposure to create people um and and a view of the pathway for foryoung girls coming through. We need to be doing the same for young disabledpeople to show that there are there is a route forward that you can go andrepresent.
James Cooper
David, there are some sports where people are guilty of saying things andnot doing it. I don't think that's true of cricket. Um, you know, disabilitysport is on on the rise. We only have to look at the women's world cup in thiscountry to realize the profile that's got there. So, they are doing as well assaying, but whether they're doing and saying as quickly as they should be,
David Brown
oh, I think it's difficult. But I think there's a lot of credit in termsof the way uh women's cricket in particular has developed in the last 5 to 10years and the investment that's gone into that to allow women to be full-timepros as well and and you know be well compensated for that and given theopportunities through the hundred you've got to invest in some of these thingsto begin with to allow it to grow without the investment you've it's nevergoing to have a chance and hundred has done a massive job in doing that hugejob and I think you know the fact that they play it's played on the same thesame ground the same day. It's an event for the for the the whole day is a is areally good concept and I think you know I go down to my local cricket club atBurnley and we mentioned All Stars earlier a huge amount of girls are now atAllstars. my daughter goes down and she plays and um the I think the the thetrickle down effect of more girls wanting to take up the sport and play thesport and I think it's a brilliant sport for for girls to get into similar tothe reasons we talked earlier for playing in a team but that individualaccolade as well the social aspect and now they can develop um and meet friendsand and and um and develop that way as well is is amazing. So I can see theimpact that investment in the women's game at professional level has had formore junior players and those those junior uh girls who are playing crickethave have role models now you know some of the England players and and and howgood they are. Um I think it's great for them.
Iain Nairn
I just going to say you we've just had the women's world cup here andEngland winning that. you know, was rugby seeing the same sort of, you know,flow into the into the game on on the women's side because, you know, again, itwas well supported from what it looked like on on the TV.
Alex Cadwallader
Yeah, I think uh I'd probably say rugby is still a step behind uh cricketin that, you know, in the final uh England played against Canada and Canada hadto do a GoFundMe page to pay for them to have a physio at the final. So, umyeah, that's uh we're still a long way off. Um, England are at the forefront ofreally trying to promote it, presenting the game in a certain way, selling outTwickenham. Um, and there's some absolute superstar players and the quality ofthe game has improved. I do think personally that uh, you know, cricket doeshave that advantage in that um, even you know, parents at the moment areconcerned about young Johnny playing rugby. They're probably even moreconcerned about young Jessica playing rugby. uh whereas cricket you know doesn'thave that impact and I think it has made a massive uh step forward but it'sfantastic you know you you now um especially with a lot of our main sportsbeing behind pay walls it's quite nice on a Saturday Sunday morning at homewith your children looking for some um sport on the terrestrial channels it'svery easy to find you know women there performing and the next step um you knowwill be sort of the you know disability sports and so on and so on so that goesback to my point that if you look at the NFL and if you ever been to some ofthe games, how they massly promote uh often people that have come back injuredfrom um service servicemen in the military, you go to the NFL game and you'realmost looking up to those people as much as you are um Patrick Mahomes.They're properly in the spotlight. It's part of the ethos of the NFL to promotedoing good things to into society. Thanks thanksgiving days, you know, handingout all the all the turkeys and so on and so on. So I think let's get stableprofitable businesses that can then feed back into society as well.
David Brown
I think as well on that point you know you you particularly nowadays withsustainability of organizations and particularly cricket and you look at andwant to attract the best sponsors they also have uh requirements to invest inin businesses essentially which are uh inclusive which are sustainable andtherefore not only is it the right thing to do from a so society perspective umI think it's makes good business sense as well to have these different facetsof participation across across the whole spectrum.
James Cooper
I I'm mindful that the strength of this podcast is having experts whoknow what they're talking about. We're talking about women's cricket and we'rethree four blokes. However, um there's only one person in the room that's won aWorld Cup. Um so that kind of makes it relevant, Iain. But you've also lost theWorld Cup on home soil. So how how difficult is it going to be for the for theEngland women's team to to bring bring it home? Bearing in mind that they'vejust beaten India, but Australia here um and the pressure on being the hostnation.
Iain Nairn
Yeah, look, the Australian women's team look like they're a step aboveeveryone really and the the the level of their performances over the last, youknow, four or five years has been outstanding, but we are at home. The lasttime we at home, we we won. Um, you know, I think there's every opportunity forthe for the girls to go out there and really put on a show. Hopefully they canmake it into the final and you and then you never know. It's you it's one game,isn't it? And uh and that's all it takes. But they they seem to be you to get awin against you against India definitely sets them up in the in the right wayto push forward.
James Cooper
And when you won uh in Bangladesh. Yeah. Um how big a step forward wasthat for disability cricket in this country?
Iain Nairn
I mean it at that stage it was it was massive. It was the first time thatmore than two teams in disability cricket had got together and played. Um wewere playing live on TV in Bangladesh. You millions of people were readingabout it because it was cricket in Bangladesh. They were they were all over it.You come back and and so that was 2015. We then played three two series at homeby 2019. That was that was almost unheard of to have had that regular crickethappening. Unfortunately then covid stepped in the way and you and caused somedamage and and probably put it back a few years but then brought about the banddisability stuff. I think everything has a there's a reason for everything andit's created this new opportunity.
James Cooper
I want to finish off by gazing into the future and looking about whatcricket's going to be in 10 years time. David, I'll give you that questionfirst. Where is it going? What are we looking at? And we're sat here in 2036talking about where cricket's at. What does cricket look like in this country?Is is the 4 day game still sustainable?
David Brown
I hope so. Um I don't think it's any better format of the game, testcricket and 4 day cricket. That's why, you know, I'm probably a purist, butthat's that's how I see it. Um, I would like to think there's a a world wherethey can both coexist. I think in this country, um, I don't see hundred beinghere. I think it will probably turn into a T20 competition. Um, what happenspost that as we discussed earlier with other competitions out the blast remainsto be seen. I do hope we live in a world where test cricket is still theabsolute pinnacle of the game. Um and you know at the moment uh you've England,you have India and you have Australia really in terms of um the big those thosebig three maybe South Africa to a lesser extent. Do those countries still seethemselves point to screen in 10 years? I don't know. I hope they do.
James Cooper
Killer question. Do do you still see 18 counties in 10 years time?
David Brown
Um I think there's a world exists where it could not be because we'veseen the recent um the recent news with Sussex for example. There's other clubswhich have been struggling. Um I think
James Cooper
but they're bizarre in the sense they're doing it on the pitch in spiteof some of the stuff going on financially, aren't they?
David Brown
Yeah, I think they've still got some talented players ultimately, youknow, and and um you know, some some Ollie Robinson's just been picked forEngland again. You know, they've got some really really good players at Sussex.Um I think ultimately though, longer term, you'd perhaps see the effects ofthat in maybe two or three years if they're not able to sustain the financialinvestment into those players and maybe do they want to go elsewhere. There'stoo much noise around the club. I don't I don't know. But um there's a knock-oneffect I think in a couple years with that potentially. Um I think it's totallyfeasible that there there is less than 18 counties. Um I think it might theymight exist but they may exist in a different framework. So there still hugehugely important part of the pyramid but maybe there's a different structurethat's the catalyst from this hundred investment and more money coming into thegame and the changes that that might make.
James Cooper
Iain I think that the the current TV deals up in 2028. I think we'llprobably know a little bit more then and and we'll work out probably how muchmoney has been chewed through by then. That's probably a clearer way forward ora clear clearer sign of where we might be going.
Iain Nairn
Yeah, you some time is going to have to pass to see how the how thecounties use that money. I suspect that, you know, we we see in theprofessional world a contraction in the number of people in the marketplace. Itwouldn't surprise me if that did happen with the with the counties that, youknow, there was maybe some mergers happening to to pull some of the centralcounties together uh just to make them a bit more viable and and sustainable. Ithink that that could happen. I think my my dream of what we're talking aboutin 10 years time is that where where you're talking about you the men's game ingreat health with the each county having a a woman's team playing playing eliteand a disability team play you playing around the same grounds with the with thatsame support that would then show an an unbelievable level of success from thefrom the the hundred money.
James Cooper
Alex asking you about Rob Andrew and how he ticks how would he look atthe next 10 years bearing in mind the things we've talked about on thispodcast.
Alex Cadwallader
I think he'll look at it as a a challenging opportunity. Um, and I thinkthere are lots of hurdles ahead. Looking from afar, and this got nothing to dowith uh with Rob, I personally think delivering a return on the Hundred isgoing to be a real stretch. Um, and I'll be happy to proved wrong, but I don'tthink it's going to be a success to the level that uh the investors are hoping.I think it's a very already a very crowded calendar and every sport is tryingto find more and more eyeballs to generate more and more revenue. Um, and whyis the hundred going to be more successful than everything else that's going onin the sporting world? You've got football world cups being larger. You canwatch the IPL now in every jurisdiction. Um, so I think that's the realchallenge is you what what's actually what's happening in the next three yearswith the hundred and how does that actually deliver a return?
James Cooper
David, I'll finish a cricket podcast by asking a cricketer and probablythe most obvious question to a COO, what's in it for those investors who who'veput their money forward in terms of getting the returns that Alex speaks aboutor is that is that the big unknown?
David Brown
Well, it's an unknown for me. I think clearly they get huge mediaexposure and it's broadcast rights. So that that's that's clearly why theyinvesting in in the competition and then in the franchises themselves. You seethe global figures of the the um the viewing figures for the IPL and how manypeople watch that. Um I think the challenge though going back to Alex's pointis I do think this franchise T20 cricket hundred whatever you want to call itfranchise game is hugely saturated. There's so many competitions now around theworld. It's why is the hundred going to be any different? Now, I don't think,you know, the hundred is uh it had a point of difference. It was quirky, but isthat long-term sustainable? Are people going to be attracted to it long term? Idon't know if they are. Um, but I think I think you know the broadcast rightsis where it's going to it's going to make or break in terms of that return oninvestment.
James Cooper
And without waving the flag too ferociously for for Leonard Curtis,you're doing the ECB's job for them with this research you're doing.
David Brown
I think we're giving a view. Clearly they're in the detail every day andthere's probably things that they don't share in public which they can't shareas you understand from a confidentiality perspective but there's a lot of smartpeople at the ECB having these discussions day in day out but you know ascricket fan as a ex cricketer you know it's a real uh it's a privilege actuallyto give an opinion and and what you think um you know I certainly have somestrong views but doesn't mean I'm right.
James Cooper
David Iain Alex great to have you in the studio thanks ever so much andthat's it for another episode of Sport, Structured Podcast with Leonard Curtis.I've hope we've shown you that we do do things a little bit differently. Yeah,there's informed conversation and debate that's backed up by data, research,and recommendations aimed at growing longer lasting and more sustainable sportfor years to come. Keep your eyes peeled for the latest edition of the LeonardCurtis Cricket Finance Report. And thanks for being part of the Sport,Structured Podcast. Look out for pod four coming very soon.
Disclaimer: The content of this podcast is intended as commentary and opinion on matters of public interest in the sports industry. While we make every effort to ensure accuracy, figures, statistics and financial data referenced may be based on publicly available estimates and could be subject to error or change. Nothing in this podcast should be taken as a statement of fact. If you believe any information is inaccurate, please contact us at rob.venables@leonardcurtis.co.uk and we will endeavour to correct the record promptly.
